I saw a link to this article on After Ellen Blog Twitter post and thought it's very interesting. Two authors are going to write a book about women who have identified as Het but have left their husbands or boyfriends for another woman.
I think it can be an interesting book, but one thing caught my attention and maybe not in a good way.
The editors are looking for women “who were aware that they had always felt robust same-sex desires, but wanted to try to make it work in the straight world, and also who identified as heterosexual at one time, but found that the situation they were in just naturally led to embarking on an intimate romantic relationship with a woman.”
I think this excludes a lot of women who've identified as HET and find themselves attracted to a woman, but who've also not had same sex attractions.
I don't like the sentence but wanted to try to make it work in the straight world, because this suggests that women who fall in love with a woman after a lifetime of being/ identifying as HET, have been suppressing their "lesbianism," which I disagree with.
It might be the case with many women, but not all women who do this. I think this could be an interesting study about what seems to have become a recognized, recent trend lately. However, I would love for them to not constrict their parameters to women who've "denied" their same sex attractions and are now willing to explore them.
I think there might be more women than they think out there who have fallen in love with a woman and or who might want to engage in a romantic/sexual relationship, but who haven't had strong same-sex sexual impulses that they've suppressed all their lives. It would be nice if they were included as well.
At any rate, it's nice that this topic is out in the open and getting discussed.
22 comments:
"I don't like the sentence but wanted to try to make it work in the straight world, because this suggests that women who fall in love with a woman after a lifetime of being/ identifying as HET, have been suppressing their "lesbianism," which I disagree with."
I also disagree. One of my closest friends left her fifteen-year marriage for a female love interest. I can't say I ever knew her to be secretly pining for women or "suppressing" herself. She seemed very comfortable in her marriage.
I will say, though, that her relationship with her ladylove does register to my observation as much more romantic in nature than I ever recall her and her husband being. By that I mean I see the two ladies hug, hold hands, put arms around each other, and just express affection toward each other more.
I sometimes wonder if it really does boil down to romantic seduction. For most women, I think, desire almost always begins in the mind. Maybe some ladies are just better at it than gentlemen?
I think ladies are just generally better at the emotional stuff than the gentlemen. Here's a quote I loved from this article:
"Bisexual males and bisexual females both report similar levels of erotic excitement with male and female partners. However, both males and females report more emotional satisfaction with female partners."
Makes sense to me. :)
I sometimes wonder if it really does boil down to romantic seduction. For most women, I think, desire almost always begins in the mind. Maybe some ladies are just better at it than gentlemen?
I think this is true. Although I think het girlfriends can give that kind of emotional support without having a romantic relationship.
I think it's quite common that men in marriages just aren't really emotionally available. They are fun and can take care on a practical level, but women, on the whole, are much more nurturing.
And I think many women these days, more so than ever, have so much they have to deal with between jobs, kids and stress and typically they are the ones who give and give and don't get much back.
So when a woman comes along who's very supportive and nurturing when the current husband might be adding to the stress, some women will just go for it and drink up that kind of love and support.
And also it's true that women are more emotionally based and other women know exactly what a woman wants so she can be very seductive to another woman.
Relying on nothing more than "stuff I've heard" and snippets from Oprah, isn't it older women who tend to leave their men for women? If so, I'd be more inclined to think it's because as we get older we become more in tune with who we are and what makes us happy vs. the "lightbulb" moment of "realization" that there's been suppression of desires.
I agree that women tend to be better at the emotional stuff. And perhaps that explains the "switching" best : )
Historically, the concept of "romantic friendship" was very normal in western society up until about the end of the 19th century.
These friendships were generally based upon powerful emotional ties and do appear to have romantic elements in them. It's debatable whether relationships of this sort included sexual attraction; my general impression is not, since society identified homosexuality as aberrant behavior.
I think "romantic friendship," particularly for females, may have helped fulfill women's emotional needs as they went through the "business" of marriage. I'm not proposing women did not love their spouses, but the friendships may have "taken up slack" when husbands were unavailable.
I think "romantic friendship," particularly for females, may have helped fulfill women's emotional needs as they went through the "business" of marriage. I'm not proposing women did not love their spouses, but the friendships may have "taken up slack" when husbands were unavailable.
Though in theory today's husbands are supposedly more available, I think this notion of "romantic friendship" is just as accurate today. The emotional slack is taken up via shopping, meeting for coffee, going out for girls night, hour-plus long phone calls over nothing in particular, etc. Things haven't really changed *that* much : )
isn't it older women who tend to leave their men for women?
I think this is correct and even thought they don't say so in this article, it's rather implied by the fact that it's women who've been married or in long term het relationships that are bailing for women. So yeah, I think it is more about older women. And I think what you say is true. As we age and have experience, we do feel more comfortable and clear about what we want and go for it a bit easier I think.
Mia, what you say is very interesting. It's a very curious to me how many women who identify as het can have a very close and intimate emotional relationship with a woman but don't enter into the sexual/romantic realm.
I get the impression that a lot of these women who are falling for women later in life or after having been het weren't really attracted sexually to women for the most part, but ended up with a woman because that woman gave her something she was lacking emotionally or even romantically, as in being appreciated and loved, which many men have a hard time expressing.
In two instances with friends I've had in the past, one had been married to a very abusive man. A woman helped her get out of that relationship and then my friend had a 3 year relationship her as her lover/partner. When I met her she had been married again for some years to a man. I wonder then is she really a bisexual, or did she end up with that woman because she needed some serious emotional support and that woman gave her what she needed?
The second friend was married for some years when her husband cheated on her and left for weeks at a time. She had several het affairs until she met one woman who swept her off her feet. After that woman she's only been with men and has not been attracted to any women.
So I do wonder if that emotional need coming from having had difficult and somewhat unloving relationships with men was the driving force for their getting with a woman. Makes me wonder if getting emotional support they desperately needed translated into the sexual realm.
I don't really see either friend as being bisexual because they had a one time affair for a few years because they preferred to be with men.
"I think this notion of "romantic friendship" is just as accurate today. The emotional slack is taken up via shopping, meeting for coffee, going out for girls night, hour-plus long phone calls over nothing in particular, etc. Things haven't really changed *that* much : )"
Hi, Cathy. : )
Please keep in mind I'm an overanalytical student as well as a writer. This means I read tons of stuff and often think about it too much.
My opinion: the "romantic friendship" of historical past is not the same as present day "best friendship." If you read some of the letters sent between women friends (and men friends to each other as well,) there is a decided romantic element in their language.
Phrases like "my love" are used, for instance, and some of the language is very deep and obviously romantic in tone. They read very much like love letters. It definitely does not equate with today's shopping trip or three hour phone visit.
Yes, I agree our BFF's enrich our lives in the present day, but I do think differences exist, too. I know if one of my girlfriends emailed me, "Dear, my sweet, I adore you, and my heart aches until I hold you close once more," that would be a "head-scratching moment" for me, and generally I'm very demonstrative with my friends (male or female), hug them and kiss them, call them by endearments, etc..
"Mia, what you say is very interesting. It's a very curious to me how many women who identify as het can have a very close and intimate emotional relationship with a woman but don't enter into the sexual/romantic realm."
Hey Leah! I'm outlining a new f/f/m project. Wish me luck on it. : )
Regarding your comment, I think humans are human, flawed, lovely creatures, all of us. To my mind, romantic interest and sexual interest aren't the same thing. You can be crazy about someone and not want to sleep with them, and you can be dying to sleep with someone without caring much about them.
I'm going out on a limb here, though, and I will theorize that a romantic interest is more likely to evolve to sensual interest than the other way around (which is sort of odd, since the "good sexual chemistry leads to true love/romance" equation has been done, redone, and overdone in the media.)
I'm "thinking into type." Am I making sense?
Hi M.A. : )
I've read similar letters from the times and agree the language is definitely more romantic than today's BFF exchanges. But I think in some cases (probably more than "some') women today would admit they are emotionally closer to their friends than their spouses.
And isn't it funny that back in the day a woman *could* write such a letter to her friend without nary an eyebrow being raised but the same endearments today would make us say "What the...?" Here I thought we were at least a little more relaxed about such things : )
Good luck with the new f/f/m project.
Heh, with regards to romantic language between friends in that past and the current shopping and such, I think a lot of that is social conditioning and maybe not so much a statement of romantic vs. platonic relationships.
I remember when I was 18 back in the mid 70's and going overseas. I was rather shocked that European women showered in big open rooms and walked around naked in front of each other all the time. Platonic girlfriends held hands when walking and were far more affectionate than American woman in this way. I know that if any of that where to go on in America at that time or if I tried to hold my girlfriend's hand or hug her she would have looked at me very funny and it would have been weird.
Nowadays, and for a long time since mixing with people from many different cultures, I feel very comfortable telling a good friend that I love her, and holding hands and hugging a lot. I'll even say "Hi sweetheart or sweetie" and not mean anything other than I love you as a friend and they take it that way.
But there are definite boundaries and language that when crossed suggest more than just friends.
I think nowadays, it's easier to blend or cross former no no boundaries and still not mean anything by it.
Mia-- exciting! Good luck on your new f/f/m. I'll buy it in a snap! :)
"And isn't it funny that back in the day a woman *could* write such a letter to her friend without nary an eyebrow being raised but the same endearments today would make us say "What the...?" Here I thought we were at least a little more relaxed about such things : )"
I think the difference is that, in "polite society," there was a presumed "respectability" among the "membership." "Respectable" women were not bisexual or lesbian. Simple as that. So the more romantic affections as permitted in the relationships were deemed innocent of sexual impropriety.
These days, same sex preference is not deemed something "dishonorable" or "aberrant." But there is much more confusion and ambiguity in one's social relationships.
First off, let me say that I agree the sentence does alienate a lot of women.
I joined a board of married Lesbians. I've noticed a large number of women who have had a fling or an attraction with another woman have opted to leave their husbands. Or, if they opt to stay, they admit they no longer have any sexual attraction towards their husbands. There doesn't seem to be much gray area for them to still love their husbands. They're Lesbian and that's it. End of story.
While I find women more seductive, emotional and all, Lesbians complain about the same things heterosexual people complain about. Finding someone compatible with them, a woman who doesn't play head games, butches who won't cheat on them or abuse them. I've read numerous posts of women breaking up because of social pressures, family expectations and their own inner feelings.
I've also noticed that very few of these women admit to having attractions towards women from a young age, but more of a developing bicuriousness that happened to blossom. And I think this accounts for the impulsiveness to break up their marriages. Face it, when I was a teenager and had my first go with a girl, I was a kid in Wonka World.
A woman being in a marriage for 10 or more years, with kids, full time job, people fall into routines, you get bored, sex with the husband is more like a task to shut him up and he's emotionally unavailable most of the time. So along comes another woman and she's getting the emotion, the romance and affection, visions of Wonka World, it's easy for a woman to convince herself she needs that and her marriage is a sham. She feels alive again and tada, she believes she's a Lesbian.
Many of these women are hurting their husbands (most of these poor guys don't even see this coming), their kids are like huh?, all for mostly a fling. Most of them know little or nothing about the Lesbian world or coming out. Coming out is a process, it isn't a decision made because some woman walks in that rocks her world.
I joined this board to mingle with other women who were like me. We love women but for whatever reason, we have husbands and we love them too. Instead I found "hey I'm a Lesbian and I can't be around my husband anymore."
After trying so long to meet a woman that my husband has given me the okay I can have a relationship with, I've all but called it quits. I just write about it. I've had chicks lead me on, too many head games, b.s., women I have zero attraction to and Lesbians telling me I'm cheating even though my husband knows and is not in the picture. Plus I'm a stud so that doesn't make it any easier. I'm just weird and I accept it.
If I got off the subject, I'm sorry and thanks for letting me rant a little.
A woman being in a marriage for 10 or more years, with kids, full time job, people fall into routines, you get bored, sex with the husband is more like a task to shut him up and he's emotionally unavailable most of the time. So along comes another woman and she's getting the emotion, the romance and affection, visions of Wonka World, it's easy for a woman to convince herself she needs that and her marriage is a sham. She feels alive again and tada, she believes she's a Lesbian.
Chaeya, hey! How's it going?
Your opinion is interesting because I do see the logic in your thinking.
But I think the same scenario could (does) take place between straight couples, too (I mean people straying due to "boredom" with married life and routine.)
I think multiple factors impact these situations. One possible factor is (maybe?) the happily married wife is more susceptible to female seduction because she's not necessarily expecting it?
Let's say "Jack" and "Jill" are happily married for a sound length of time, they build a life together, raise a family, develop careers, etc.. They're happy and content together. Their marriage has its ups and downs like any couple's.
"Jill" loves "Jack" and does not entertain the possibility of infidelity, so when Julio Hotlips makes his move Jill doesn't hesitate to put him in his place. She's a "good girl/woman" and she doesn't "cheat."
But then "Janet" enters the scene. "Jill" doesn't guard against romantic attraction to "Janet" because "Jill" doesn't entertain the possibility of women as potential romantic partners at all.
So, "Janet" and "Jill" become good friends, spend a lot of time together, talk often, do stuff, etc. ... and someday, somehow, possibility opens up?
Argh- Blogger has decided that there's a limit to the amount of characters that can be in a comment so I'm dividing my comments into two comments. Sorry about that.
Chaeya---I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make, but I'm very curious about what you've said.
Are you saying that women who fall in love with a woman later in life and leave a husband and family were lesbians all along and completely denounce men from then on?
Or are you saying that woman who leave their husbands for a woman are pretty clueless as to what they are doing and therefore are not lesbians?
I've also noticed that very few of these women admit to having attractions towards women from a young age, but more of a developing bicuriousness that happened to blossom.
I'm not quite sure what your implication is with that sentence in the scope of your whole post. So in your experience, many women who are in het marriages who fall in love with a woman were really deep down always into women?
There doesn't seem to be much gray area for them to still love their husbands. They're Lesbian and that's it. End of story
See, to me, this seems to imply though that they were one of those women that the article talks about. Women who've been suppressing their lesbianism and not women who might find out later in life that they are bisexual. Or who fall into Mia's example of a woman who is happily married and finds herself suddenly attracted to a specific woman when there's never been any attractions to women in the past.
it's easy for a woman to convince herself she needs that and her marriage is a sham. She feels alive again and tada, she believes she's a Lesbian.
Again though, this seems to be a case where a woman was suppressing an inner tendency to attractions to women already. Because there are lots of het women who'd find what they want with another man and not gravitate towards woman to get what they need.
Most of them know little or nothing about the Lesbian world or coming out.
Well that's probably true. But not sure what you are saying with this. Are they then not really lesbians but just playing at it as a fad? I think there are probably many women who've tried to fit into a het world but find they cannot after a certain age and comfortableness in their own skin and of course they're not going to be too familiar with what the reality of being gay or part of that world. There has to be a start somewhere.
I joined this board to mingle with other women who were like me. We love women but for whatever reason, we have husbands and we love them too.
See this is where I'm confused. Because the name of that forum is Married "LESBIANS." It implies to me that it's for women who are really lesbian, meaning not having any attraction to men, and not bisexual women who are attracted to both men and women. So I'm not really surprised that you're finding women on that board who are married but it's majorily a sham.
My sister's life partner is a woman who was married for almost 20 years, was a preacher's wife and so on. She got tired one day of denying her attractions to women and now considers herself a lesbian, having no sexual attractions to men.
She is that type of person that I would think would be on that board.
Part II
women I have zero attraction to and Lesbians telling me I'm cheating even though my husband knows and is not in the picture.
Again, I can see where you might be disillusioned in this case because you are meeting "lesbians" and not bisexual women who get your desire and need to be with your husband.
This is all such and interesting topic for me because I think sexuality is very gray. For some people it's definitely black and white, but I think if most people are honest, then it's gray and indefinable at times.
I think I fall into that category of Mia's story, which is why I questioned the article and wished it would include women who've not had same sex attractions for most of their lives.
I'm not a lesbian, I love men too much and I love my husband very much. I can't see leaving him for another woman. I've never really had any sexual attractions to women and I even tried it. My body just shut down sexually. So it's not like I was closed off trying to deny some hidden, unconscious same sex feelings.
But I do find myself now in middle age becoming more open and curious about the possibility and idea of a romantic relationship with a woman. I have no idea if that would ever happen, but it does make me wonder about other women who might be in the same position and why it's suddenly a possibility in my mind and heart after a lifetime of not being interesting and... while being happily married and deeply in love with my husband who is my best friend.
"This is all such and interesting topic for me because I think sexuality is very gray. For some people it's definitely black and white, but I think if most people are honest, then it's gray and indefinable at times."
Hi Leah!
I've put on my "think too much" hat. I can't believe women abandoning marriages do so to cater to their sexuality. I've read multiple studies through the years indicating sexual fulfillment is (generally) a moderate priority to females in comparison to emotional fulfillment.
In other words, most women will put up with less than stellar performance in the bedroom if they're happy emotionally/romantically with their partners.
I think it's really the love/romance/emotional fulfillment women feel: 1) are lacking in the marriage, OR 2) are better met with another partner (male or female)that will motivate a woman to leave.
Another thought...Please excuse me, because this might sound tacky...but over the years I've heard a LOT of women friends complain about lack of sexual fulfillment with boyfriends/husbands due to the male's poor performance or lack of knowledge in arousing and pleasing a woman.
I could easily see a woman experiencing humdrum sex with an unknowledgeable (or just damned selfish) husband/boyfriend get a few good experiences with a female lover and then decide she must be lesbian since she did not get that same fulfillment with the lazy male lover.
M.A., yes, the same CAN happen for straight couples, so I was in no way insinuating that it only happened from this side of the fence. The point is, it's happening and it's happening a lot in middle age, a time when we get bored. For as many women who have affairs with men, I believe they are having it with women because women are becoming more accessible than years before. There are far more people out now as bisexual than 20 years ago. There are plenty of websites where women can admit to being bicurious and seek an encounter. Whereas years ago, a woman may have kept these feelings to herself and suffered in silence. Or she may have gotten drunk and gone out with a dude.
You can go to Craigslist right now and go to any city and seek under woman seeking woman encounters and find plenty of ads of women looking for a shopping buddy, coffee time and more. Bicurious and so on. There's tons. Some of them are men which is sick, but there's enough women there.
Leah,
I read your response, so I hope you don't mind if I tackle it without the quotes. I had a rough day and I just want to type.
First off, I didn't join the board to meet women. The board is a support group only. I was going other places to meet women socially. That is a whole 'nother can a worms which would take too long.
Second, I am sexually attracted to women. I can only achieve sexual fulfillment if I think of women. However, I like men affectionately. I "tolerate" sex with them. With women I am too masculine and really, I don't want to be in a living situation with one. I like to be in a relationship with men because I need the nurturing of a man. I wouldn't make a good partner for a woman. I may sound screwed up to you and I know many Lesbians don't like what I am. So I need a support group. Whether it makes sense to other people or not, this is what I am. I wasn't happy being around the bisexual sites because many of them were too promiscuous, didn't want long term relationships or were looking for threesomes with their men. That's not what I'm about. I'm looking for a long term relationship with a woman. I joined the Married Lesbian board to meet and speak with other women like me and in the beginning I was able to meet women like me who understood my pain. So I didn't feel like a complete weirdo. So I'm not disillusioned about who I am. And I have enough Lesbians trying to lay the "I'm confused" label on me. That's the reason for joining the site is because these married Lesbians got so much hostility from the Lesbian community. So whether they're like me, married for social reasons or to hide their feelings from their families, that's why this board exists.
Part II to Leah
Third, what I said in my post is there is no one answer as to what is behind a woman truly leaving. Some are Lesbian from the getgo and hid it, some find out later because they found themselves attracted to a friend, and then some are simply bored. They have an encounter for whatever reason and boom, they're a Lesbian. They didn't have any previous feelings. They admit that. They never saw it coming. Some admitted to being a little curious. There is no one answer.
But, I'm noticing a trend with women who suddenly find themselves touchy feely with their shopping buddy or were seduced by a woman where they are suddenly this "instant Lesbian." I'm not talking about the ones who are. I'm speaking of women who have admitted to having little or not attraction to women beforehand. A number of them have not sought therapy or allow the relationship with the woman to develop into anything long term to even see if being with a woman is what they truly want. They are breaking up their families and then when they wind up with girlfriend, they find themselves basically in the same situation as their HET marriage.
Now there have been so far a few happy endings to some of these encounters, but some of them wound up back with their husbands because either she or her mate got the flakes. The "It's not you it's me."
Most women who want to come out as Lesbian tend to approach it as a lifestyle change. They don't have an encounter with a woman and then they're reminded they are Lesbian and no longer want their husbands anymore. They simply find they can no longer live with their urges any longer or with hiding who they are. They tend to have a better head about it. They treat coming out as a process. Again, I'm not saying ALL here.
The real deal is this. I'm not against a woman who wants to have an experience with another woman. I'm not like a lot of Lesbians who look down on bicurious women. I'm just of the mind, be sure that's what you want and be sure that you know where the attraction is coming from. Be sure before you tell your husband you don't want to be with him any more and before you tell your kids that you're moving out and in with another woman.
Furthermore, I don't think all the woman on the board are in sham marriages. That's their choice and it takes just as much bravery for a woman to hide her true urges as it does to come out. It's painful. I know if my mother and father knew I was Lesbian it would have truly hurt them. I didn't care to force them into my world and to accept it. Although I don't knock anyone who does. This is my choice. But then some people simply can't live in the straight world.
The reason I feel so strongly about all this is I used to be a youth counselor for gay teens when I was a teenager. We helped people come to terms with their feelings and with coming out.
I hope I was able to answer your questions.
I think women tend to be more nurturing and emotionally available than men, and there's gotta be a real appeal to having a relationship where everything is "easy". There's no translating from manspeak to femspeak. She knows just what to say when you ask if your ass looks fat in these pants.
I've always been bi. I'm pretty much equally sexually attracted to men and women--always have been. But these days, I feel like a relationship with a woman would involve a little less compromise than one with a man.
I recently separated from my husband of 15 years. That decision was based 100% on our relationship and what was wrong with it. But I must say, it's a strange new world for me, trying to find the right woman for me. Falling into a sexual relationship with a man is easy. With a woman, it's much more...tricky. Negotiating the whole "straight/bicurious/bisexual/lesbian/how the fuck do you tell?" continuum is a dang nightmare in a small town....
Chaeya--- OK now I totally get where you're coming from.
This is what I meant by sexuality being gray and I can see now what you are dealing with.
What a difficult position you are in. Really. I can really feel for you.
I can see why your case is very uncommon and how hard it'd be to find a female companion who feels the same way as you, while at the same time being mutually attracted. Especially because she might also have a husband and then you have actually 4 people to consider when working out an arrangement in which everyone is OK.
We are all coming from different perspectives and tastes and I really do like to keep this an open space for everyone. Particularly those who don't fit into any categories, which is why Kirsten and I started this blog.
Kirsten wrote: "I think women tend to be more nurturing and emotionally available than men, and there's gotta be a real appeal to having a relationship where everything is "easy". There's no translating from manspeak to femspeak. She knows just what to say when you ask if your ass looks fat in these pants."
I believe that to be a stereotype, it hasn't been true in my case. I grew up with men being my nurturers. I was hated by most women growing up because of my skin color. My mother and I fought most of the time and she put me down or criticized me for them most of my feelings. When I was older, I had trouble relating to women because it seems I would always do or say something to piss them off. So I haven't had very many close relationships with women. I've been abandoned by most of them, including my own birth mother. I've just always been a misfit. And because of my past, I still have trouble connecting with women. I'll open up with a man before I do a woman. There are many men out there who don't act like "ug". The reason I love my husband so much is he acts more feminine emotionally. Most men I've met are more beta, emotional men. I look and behave like a femme, I relate more like a man. I have trouble to this day opening up with a woman because I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when I'm around women. It's a little easier online because I'm behind the computer.
Leah, I really do appreciate this site. It does allow me a little outlet and I'm able to see into how others feel and relate. And also the writing of f/f that's available.
The reason I love my husband so much is he acts more feminine emotionally. Most men I've met are more beta, emotional men.
Perhaps I'm my own worst enemy, but I know those emotional, beta men are out there. I just can't seem to make myself be attracted to them.
I don't know how common this is, but I'm attracted, emotionally and physically, to strong, masculine men and soft, feminine women. And the attraction, whether to the macho man or the girlie girl, is all about where I am in my life. When my confidence is high, I want to be more dominant in a relationship (and in bed) and that's when I find women most appealing. When I'm at a low ebb, I just find men really hot and crave the kind of sex where he just pins you down and takes what he wants.
It's like I'm a bisexual switch or something. Best case scenario for me would be a relationship like I wrote in Bound by Steel. There's a lot of me in Lianon. Now if only I could find a couple likely candidates...
Post a Comment